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-- on 01/01/70 12:00 am Comments
Comments
TG Storytime is a TG fiction archive site. What we do is post TG themed stories for others to read. We do not make judgements on the quality of the submissions. If we were to do that, it would be an impossible standard that could not be applied fairly. So as long as a submission meets our minimum requirements, it gets posted.

The minimum requirements are for a story to be sufficiently long enough to qualify as a story, at least have a beginning to the story, be legal to post, and not be abusive. And of course, it has to have some transgender aspect primary to the story.

In addition, we ask that reviews and comments not be abusive, be on topic, and are legal to post.

We are not a transgender support organization. We like to think we further transgender acceptance just by our very existence, and are happy to play a part in the overall movement.

We are not here to protect or shelter transgender folks from those who disagree with the concept. We will get rid of those accounts who are personally abusive, but we will not go after users who are anti-transgender, because this changes our mission from being an open platform of writing to one of applying a test of faith and belief systems to our users and to the stories. We cannot try to weed out "non-believers" as if we were a religious cult.

If you disagree with what's being posted by a user, or the frequency by which it's being posted, then you have many, many ways to avoid dealing with it. Ratings are one way, using searches or categories are another. You can Favorite and Track authors you like. You can also just chose to move on when you find something you find objectionable. If you feel there is content or activity which needs moderation, be sure to send an email to the site, and we will look into it.

Your best tactic as a reader is to ignore what you don't like. Engaging with someone who is obviously trying to provoke a reaction is not going to do anything but make the problem worse. The more you swat at a beehive, the more angry the bees get and the more will come out. Let it pass and focus on the things you like, the writers you want to encourage and the stories that mean the most to you.
- TG Storytime on 06/18/20 01:58 pm
Joe, this is not the first time there have been legitimate complaints against a specific user, take for example NicoRobin and their numerous alternate accounts, who kept leaving abusive reviews on stories that didn't cater to them.
This isn't such a situation, this is a situation of a single user outright allienating not just a large readerbase but a large authorbase, with their constant consistent spam of stories that barely pass as legible due to being put through google translate, their misunderstanding of criticism, and their continued bigotry. There are a number of stories on this site that can be considered cheap and kind of tasteless, which are easy to avoid. The situation with liuzixuan is not such a situation, as their stories are overtaking the recent tab, burying the more established authors underneath piles of illegible stories.
It would be extremely simple to ban this single user, and would go a long way towards getting some good will back from your author and reader base.
For crying out loud the guy's banned on Fictionmania! Fictionmania!
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 06/18/20 02:14 pm
ffs Joe, the front page is littered with low effort spam. This isn't even about keeping this as a space free of bigotry (though a minimum of effort there would also be appreciated), this is just basic moderatorial duties you're shirking.
- Taxouck on 06/18/20 02:16 pm
Apologies for the double posting of the same comment, site bugged out.
Nevertheless, I stand by it.
Liuzixuan is making the site actively worse with their presence, and it would be one click to ban them and clean their stories off the site.
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 06/18/20 02:17 pm
incredibly disappointed with your decision here, joe. you can't support the trans community while actively platforming someone who uses said platform to spew violently anti-trans rhetoric. i'm seriously considering leaving the site and taking my work down after reading this.
- Morrigan on 06/18/20 02:24 pm
Been a writer here for what feels like several years now, not quite as prolific as some but slow and steady.

Ok so I am at a loss for the purpose of validation, I post on many sites, most require validation at the start for the creation of the story and posting first chapter but no validation is required from there.

Here every chapter requires validation, unless you Joe give them auto validation which applies to everything they post. I do not have auto validation, but I have many colleagues who do including my partner/gf. There is no transparency or clear explanation on how autovalidation is handed out.

I have mostly been fine with the validation system because I believed it was there to prevent spam, junk ad listings, grossly obscene submissions, submissions that might break the site or rules and low quality submission.

It turns out after witnessing the validation of 8 parts of a single story posted as separate stories and an influx of low effort/quality submission each barely a hundred to a few hundred words straight from google translate, that the validation is not what I expected.

As it stands between the inability to synchronise posting chapters between sites due to validation and the need to reformat chapters from rich text to html, is really disincentivizing my continuing to post here.

More specifically on active moderation, I was disappointed that my colleague Foreveregg was tempbanned for swearing at another user over transphobia, when that same user has been posting a mass of homophobia, transphobia and (as you could see with the grossly obscene review you removed) racism. Even more specifically again, since the author you tempbanned is a valued member of this community and one of her stories is enshrined in the Editor's picks, versus a new member who's low effort posting has been annoying authors and who's offensive contents has been well offending readers.

Also as for your poke the beehive analogy, if you are making a "don't feed the trolls" argument who not simply remove the troll if it is so obvious they are farming a reaction? As an admin and mod of several online communities myself, having clear, transparent, fair and enforced rules and guidelines are important. More so they should enrich the space encouraging people to take part, incentivising positive and quality contributions while moderating the opposite.
- Trashlyn on 06/18/20 02:26 pm
The assumption that the site is not moderating the user in question is not correct. We keep the details of such things private, but there has been quite a bit of moderation going on behind the scenes.
- TG Storytime on 06/18/20 02:31 pm
Compared to the punishment issued to Foreveregg you would hardly know there was any moderation going on given their frequency of posting new low quality story submissions, reviews on their own stories and activity in the reviewers club.

That said thank you for removing the review they placed on their own story which copy and pasted a news article which said something along the lines of African Americans bankrupt and destroyed detroit and the Black African lead government of South Africa post apatheid was corrupt and ruined the county. That said the fact that aside from removing it no apparent action was against the user was disheartening.

There seems to be major discrepancies between how you deal with a "personal attack" and attacks directed against minorities as groups.
- Wispy on 06/18/20 02:51 pm
So, collectively, I have nearly a decade of moderation experience. It's not an easy task, I understand that. But it's also something that can't be just swept under the rug and ignored. As an administrator of a site, it's your responsibility to ensure your users feel safe and happy, otherwise you won't foster a positive environment for the members of the community.

There are a number of things that all compound to make the recent issues with a certain user fairly notable. The first, and probably easily fixable part is that there are no clear rules on user activity. The Rules linked at the bottom are only for site submissions, and the actual rules that pertain to user activity is buried in the Terms page, under a pile of legalese, that makes it difficult to parse.

Let's ignore the legal parts of authorial/poster conduct and focus in on the only two parts of the terms that actually are relevant to general behavior.

(a) upload, post or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, or otherwise
objectionable; and (e) disrupt the flow of normal dialogue or negatively affect the ability of others to chat in real time;

If we're referring to a certain user that has been spamming stories, first of all, it can be easily argued that their constant posting disrupts other users' experiences, because every other story seems to be from the problem user. It's frustrating to look at the recent page and see a half dozen stories from the same user, and all their stories added together are shorter than the work of a single chapter from a more established author. It's distracting and it's disruptive.

The next note here is that it's not clear what "abusive", "harassing" or "otherwise objectionable" means. Yes, I understand that it's rude to personally attack a specific user, but how should we respond if that user is espousing abusive points of view? Like claiming that homosexuality will send us to hell? Isn't that abusive?

The reason so many of the users have been getting upset is because it doesn't feel like the administration of this site cares about its users maintaining a simple code of conduct that requires common decency. Things like "no racism, no sexism, no homophobia, no transphobia." There's a difference between someone accidentally saying something bigoted, and someone flagrantly flaunting their lack of respect. A refusal to lay any foundational set of rules on user behavior and a refusal to police the community is implicit acceptance of any inflammatory statements or stories made by a user.

Another writing site I frequent has it's very first rule listed as "don't be a dick". It's a simple rule, easy to comprehend, and it allows people to make mistakes, but it doesn't leave room for explicitly bigoted behavior. It encourages common decency.

As things stand now, the administration's refusal to act on a user who is credibly hurting the experience of users on the site, is worrying. Because by letting the user continually post, and refusing to delete problematic posts implies a casual acceptance of those statements.

Lastly, I would love to just be able to ignore this user, but considering I see their name every time I open the site, or navigate to the recent stories page, it's impossible for me to actually do so. If this site had the ability to let me block users, and hide them on most pages, I'd be happier, because then I could actually ignore them. But that's not a possibility.

I'm very frustrated because it feels like nothings being done. Administration should be transparent with their communities, freely discuss what they're and why, unless an issue such as harassment or stalking occurs. I feel let down by the people running this community. I want to feel safe here, and I don't anymore.
- MayD on 06/18/20 03:06 pm
Not in the mood to make a super long comment. I shouldn't have to, actually, the issue here is very simple.

You've got a transphobic and homophobic user spamming low quality stories for the sake of trolling and you refuse to ban them. Whether you remove some of the stuff they post or not is irrelevant if you let so much of it pass through. Just ban them and move on.

What is even the point of this post ? People have given you their thoughts, and yet you just refuse to listen to them. It looks like you're just seeking validation from someone who will tell you you're in the right.
- Skadia on 06/18/20 03:13 pm
I don't understand how this is even a debate, tbh. We have an obvious troll spamming hate speech and just acting like a stereotypical troll that has existed since the dawn of the internet. Why aren't they already even banned?

This doesn't NEED to be a discussion on civil rights, transgender acceptance, or any of the other points in your original comment Joe. This is a simple matter of a troll being a troll, and people asking you to do. Your. Job.
- FinallyFeminine on 06/18/20 03:36 pm
"We like to think we further transgender acceptance just by our very existence"

Providing a platform for transphobic / homophobic content is not furthering transgender acceptance.
- PurpleCatGirl on 06/18/20 03:38 pm
I don't understand how this is even a debate, tbh. We have an obvious troll spamming hate speech and just acting like a stereotypical troll that has existed since the dawn of the internet. Why aren't they already even banned?

This doesn't NEED to be a discussion on civil rights, transgender acceptance, or any of the other points in your original comment Joe. This is a simple matter of a troll being a troll, and people asking you to do. Your. Job.
- FinallyFeminine on 06/18/20 03:40 pm
I can't help but roll my eyes at the way you pat yourself on the back, claiming that you're helping the trans community while allowing a user to spam transphobia like that. If anyone here deserves credit for furthering trans acceptance it's the numerous trans writers who have worked to transform site by filling it with trans positive stories.

You are ultimately in control of the environment of this site. I think users are pretty easygoing when it comes to racism, homophobia, and transphobia. It's not hard to find stories that have those problems. But now you have a user spamming racism, homophobia, and transphobia to the point where it's disrupting the site, pushing out other stories, and creating a hostile environment for many of your creators. You may claim neutrality but in a situation like this inaction IS taking a side.

The site honestly does an impressive job coasting with little moderation, but it becomes clear that there's a problem when a single user is able to disrupt things this badly. Can you imagine if someone was actively attempting to disrupt the site by spamming non-stories and the Reviewer's Club? It would be a disaster that I think it's clear this site is unprepared to handle.
- Ms Black-and-blue on 06/18/20 03:49 pm
There needs to be significant change to how accounts work on this site, IMO. You’ve got troll accounts with cloned accounts made for the purpose of giving great reviews to onesself. Even subreddits require a certain amount of karma before posting/commenting.

I know you don’t want to take down bad work on the basis of “it’s bad”, but you could do other things to help declutter your site and make this site a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Examples:

1) Require an account to have been active for a time period before they can review/moderate comments & stories by newer accounts for a time period.
2) Tag accounts as ‘NEW’ or ‘VERIFIED’. This doesn’t give any personal info away and would even help more experienced users here guide newer people toward FAQs and the like. It also helps authors filter through reviews. I want to become a better writer, and I get a lot of good feedback. Troll accounts, (hopefully all ‘NEW’ since older ones would be banned), do nothing but make using this site a hassle.
3) Institute a PITA clause. A simple ‘Don’t Be A Dick’ policy needs to be set in place. People here are complaining about hate speech and a user with a racial slur in their description. That’s simply unacceptable and *Will* drive authors away if we’re allowed to be exposed to that here.
4) Be more open about moderation. You’ve stated you’ve been moderating this user behind the scenes, but that’s not doing anything to help with people’s very legitimate complaints. Put together a 3-strike policy and boot the user.

This is all off the top of my head and probably needs some more work to create a better system. But what I’d like to see here is a community where people can feel comfortable amongst each other. Where authors can filter out trolls. Where jerks are held accountable.

It shouldn’t be enough just to publish a janky story with a google drive link at the end to fill out a survey to be a legitimate user here. That story should never have gotten posted.

It shouldn’t be okay for a troll account with cloned accounts giving it 5* reviews, using hate speech, to exist on this site at all. Those accounts should be outright banned.

There needs to be some sort of gauge on user activity before they’re allowed to participate in the comments sections. Anything short of this is simply inviting trouble.

You’ve got some easy fixes here: ban a few obvious accounts. Communicate with people who’ve been hurt that action is being taken. Create a safer site.
- ginger on 06/18/20 03:58 pm
liuzixuan should be banned. At the very least they need to be removed from the Reviewer's Club.

Don't let one loud user pollute the feed for everyone.
- redactedthegreat on 06/18/20 04:01 pm
I legitimately haven't seen anything bad going on here. But I also usually don't check reviews or comments so maybe that's why. The spam stories are one thing, but they're not really causing any harm. It just takes up a lot of space on the homepage. You really can't delete stories just because "They're bad." That's not fair to the author. I have no idea what running a website is like, but I think a feature that could benefit everyone would be a filter option. Simply give people the opportunity to select certain accounts, add them to a "No contact" list, and make it so any stories or reviews from that account don't show up in your feed, or even make it impossible for certain accounts to leave reviews on select stories.

I'm not one for giving people a hard time, Joe. I don't know any of the nuances that come with moderating a website. I think you're doing the best you can. I also know that you can't really ban one person from the website. If they keep coming back with alternate accounts, it's hard to really do anything about that. I think you need to bring the hammer down a little harder, listen to the complaints a bit more, and just keep moderating to the best of your ability. Some people are asses just to be asses, and you can't really stop them from being that way.
- Onway21 on 06/18/20 04:20 pm
Your decision not to suspend DerbyGhost but not liuzixuan seems to come down to making a sharp distinction between insulting a specific individual and insulting a group of people, such as trans people or gay people. But shouldn't the latter be a *more* severe infraction?
- Trismegistus Shandy on 06/18/20 04:35 pm
*Eats Popcorn*
- Ryan A on 06/18/20 04:44 pm
I wanted to come back and make another post to respond more specifically to the actual posts made by the administration in this thread.

> We do not make judgements on the quality of the submissions.

But... we, as a community, do? There is a review and rating tool. Unless this "we" is meant to be in reference to the administration of this site. But the previous statements make it seem like this is referring to everyone on TGST. If this was meant to only refer to the administration. Great! Staff of a website should not judge the quality of content as staff, but they should be free to do so as users.

I don't think any of us care about whether a story is good or bad, but we do care when a high volume of objectively poor quality stories get posted so much that it overwhelms the other stories. Especially if those stories often harbor explicitly problematic things.

> The minimum requirements are for a story to be sufficiently long enough to qualify as a story, at least have a beginning to the story, be legal to post, and not be abusive. And of course, it has to have some transgender aspect primary to the story.

This is understandable, and I agree with it.

> We like to think we further transgender acceptance just by our very existence,

TGST has /not/ done much in aiding transgender acceptance by the sheer fact of existing. For the vast majority of this site's lifespan, content here was filled with fetishistic stories that undermined the actual realities of being trans, by fundamentally focusing on the action of changing genders as a fuel for sexual activity instead of a simple fact of being. Yes, there may have been a few trans-friendly stories, but it wasn't until users like QuietValerie began to foster explicitly trans-friendly stories that this site did anything to really help trans people.

Objectifying us as fetish fuel is not helping us, in the same way that the p*** industry having trans models, but calling them things like "shemales", isn't helping either. Uplifting trans voices helps us, and that's where this site can be good, because it gives us, trans people, a place to post our stories, that are informed by our own expressions and experiences.

And allowing /explicitly/ transphobic content undermines the work that we've done to try to turn this place into an accepting and uplifting space.

> We are not here to protect or shelter transgender folks from those who disagree with the concept

Why not? Because we're an object for someone's fetish? Because the administration does't want to take a side? It's wrong to disagree with a concept, if that concept is someone's right to exist. If the administration is only willing to do some policing, where is the line drawn? Why is racism inexcusable, but transphobia and homophobia is fine? It's fine to want to have a hands off approach when it comes to moderation, provided there are tools available to your community to self moderate. Things like, clear and explicit rules, block buttons, or forums. But this site has none of those things, so the burden of ensuring the community is a safe place is left up to the administrators.

> We will get rid of those accounts who are personally abusive, but we will not go after users who are anti-transgender, because this changes our mission from being an open platform of writing to one of applying a test of faith and belief systems to our users and to the stories

It's not a witch hunt, it's not a test of faith. It's a simple question of common decency. "Can you be respectful of people who exist?" If the answer is yes, great. If the answer is no, and the user refuses to learn, or admit mistake, then they aren't going to be a positive user for the site. And I don't see the value in letting them stay. I understand that not everyone is perfect, but if someone is at complete odds with the community, why are they allowed here?

> Ratings are one way, using searches or categories are another.

That's great and all, and I agree. But that doesn't /deal/ with the problem. It shoves it away, under the carpet. Ratings functionally serve no purpose except to indicate how much you liked a story, and categories are not always correctly applied. Limiting yourself to searches and categories also means it's more difficult to find new stories, because it cuts off the visibility of new content.

> You can also just chose to move on when you find something you find objectionable.

This is 100% correct. I already do this for stories that I know I don't like. The issue is it's far more difficult to "move on" from a story I dislike, when an almost exact same story is two lines down from the same author with the same problematic posting.

> Engaging with someone who is obviously trying to provoke a reaction is not going to do anything but make the problem worse.

Well, we would, except it feels like staff aren't dealing with the issue. If it's a troll, why are they still here? Their only goal is to cause disruption. If they're an honest-to-god user, what makes them more special than actual established users who aren't problematic and don't cause issues. If there's now way for us to self-moderate the community, why are you putting the impetus on us to do so?

> The more you swat at a beehive, the more angry the bees get and the more will come out.

Conversely, by refusing to clarify what it is that the administration is doing to deal with the problem user, and by making "both sides" style posts like these, that's just swatting the beehive as well, but it's a beehive of rightfully angry people, instead of a solitary user.

> We keep the details of such things private, but there has been quite a bit of moderation going on behind the scenes.

If the administration is doing "quite a bit of moderation behind the scenes", I feel like that implies that what we see on the site from this user is a fraction of everything they've posted. And if so much of it is being deleted and moderated, and the posts that are left are still often inflammatory and bigoted, why is this user still here?
- MayD on 06/18/20 04:58 pm
How long does something need to be to qualify as a story? In my opinion, there needs to not just be length but any presence of characters interacting with events. This is easy to decipher for 3rd person prose, but harder for 1st person. Even so, some of the recently posted prose is neither a story nor labeled as a non-story.
personally, while I am put off by liuzixuan's stances, I do not have problems with them submitting stories to this site. My problem is exclusively that their postings are the bare minimums for each concept. They clearly have the imagination; just get them to not spam and instead actually develop the things they are submitting. Further actions based on their comments might be justifiable, but it is less clear to me. This step seems essential to keep this being a site for stories.
I hope you are not being negatively effected by this burst of drama.
- Foundling_Fae on 06/18/20 05:42 pm
On the topic of Liuzixuan specifically, I don’t see any harm with letting them continue to post. I agree it’s annoying that their stories are kind of low effort, but their stories seem mostly harmless and just their expression of exploring gender and sex across a language barrier. Having said that, the spamming is an issue, as it fills the front page with a ton of these low effort stories, and I don’t think limiting people to post only 1 or 2 stories a week will have significant bearing on established authors who often take more time than that to post anyways.

More broadly, while I haven’t personally seen it or been affected by it, I am concerned that Homophobia, Transphobia, and Racism are happening on this website. I do not think it is out of line for you to include a rule banning general dickishness and bigotry.

I’m not new to the site, I’ve been reading stories here for 7 or 8 years, but I’m relatively new to being active in the community. I have always really enjoyed the high quality stories this website provides, and if you taking a more active role in moderating will help build that, then I am all for it. I would even be willing to help moderate if you need the help, as I’m sure many of us posting today would be.

Joe, it is up to you what quality you want on this site. It it your website, and whatever you say goes, but I think banning bigotry and stopping the spamming that occurs will help increase the quality and community of the website. I am in support of that.

Thanks for being a good moderator!
- Olive Branch on 06/18/20 06:22 pm
Sorry for posting twice, but one more point on spamming that I just thought of: Limiting authors to posting 1 or 2 stories, but allowing for chapter updates would also force authors to develop their ideas more instead of one-off short and low effort ideas. It would generally increase the quality of the website.
- Olive Branch on 06/18/20 06:26 pm
this system of moderation reeks of the outdated forum hells of the 00's. those places were often breeding grounds for hate for a reason. tolerating intolerance is of itself intolerant. if you think it's okay to shelter hateful worldviews, you are complicit in that hate and everything that becomes of it. the tears are on your hands.
- rosemarinae on 06/18/20 08:37 pm
I'm not about to cry "DOOOOMMM!" again in regards to this, but this isn't the first time a discussion has arisen regarding a user and what-all they post. In fact, in another instance, you said something to the effect of "Making multiple accounts to increase their numbers? I wouldn't know anything about that," and basically shrugged it off without looking at info you should have as a site admin.

That said, this goes beyond a matter of the quality of any one story, or even the quantity of bad ones, though the front page is currently stuffed with the same kind of material from the same one author. This is about the subject matter. For years now, this site has been more about fetish culture than about trans acceptance, though acceptance has arisen from this almost in spite of it. You can look at the most popular stories in the last five or seven years to get an idea as to what draws more people, for instance, but also look at how many of us went to Chatzy for a time and then Discord because of the community that had formed.

Some of us are wordy in reviews, while others might not be, when we share what we do or do not like about a chapter or whole story. Likewise, we generally try to review other people's work rather than our own, because this current person in question is now known for doing otherwise, reviewing their own work, for example; the point is that we try to avoid such bad form.

Bad form and spamming low quality work is only a fraction of it. This person in question is known to share hateful opinions of one or more communities, including the one you claim to support by merely existing. Where one or two users of the past might have been banned for attacking another person directly, this relevant person here-and-now has gone for a larger group. This seems hypocritical.

Supportive? Impossible to do anything effective? No, Joe, that's a cop-out of an attitude. Saying "I'm good for you, so stop complaining!" or anything of that sort is what some of us might expect to come from an abuser, telling their victim they can neither leave nor report them. It's the sort of thing many of us wouldn't want to come back to once we identify it, especially when someone like the user in question is allowed to run amok, "moderated" or otherwise, with their hate-filled rhetoric guised as already-poor stories that fill the front page.

I am hopeful you can understand this, and would be grateful for your full consideration on the matter.
- Desert Willow on 06/19/20 04:29 am
I am currently the second most "followed" author on the site, if that has any weight to it, and I'd like to throw my support behind what my peers Katie, Taxouck, Trashlyn, Purplecatgirl etc have all said.

I want to especially point out that giving a platform to hate is awful, and failing to stop them from using your platform is exactly the same as giving it to them. I've had to avoid the front page recently specifically because the stuff that person was saying was causing me distress. I get enough stupid bigots in my comments on other sites without having to deal with it here too. You should be doing better.
- Rosilys Inknose on 06/19/20 06:04 am
For the original issue of spamming or the very low quality of the dude's posts, a site for armature authors really does have to be liberal about what constitutes a "quality story" and not. It's a delicate line to walk - although I do believe Liu falls well below whatever that standard would be. I'd suggest work shopping some kind of warning system so you have a structure put in place to have that dialog with him or other "low quality spammers".

However, this particular user has crossed the line past that with his outright racial and sexual bigotry and hateful diatribes. At that point, for the health of the community there really needs to be a line in the sand. Otherwise you'll either get massive blowups like this every time it comes up, or eventually there'll be an exodus of users and authors effected by it.

The paradox of tolerance has already been solved, and it's morally righteous to be intolerant of intolerance. You can't both sides "I hate these people" and "I am these people". You don't wanna turn into 4chan
- Cassie Sandwich on 06/19/20 06:34 am
To be honest, in my article, I just improved the bobh's genderwave and changeday's cosmic rules, because there are many problems with gender conversion around the world. This article has absolutely no political ideas.
- liuzixuan on 06/19/20 01:33 pm
And this, right here Joe, is one of the crucial issues.
You have numerous authors and readers providing legitimate, reasonable criticism and feedback, pointing out issues about a specific user, and said specific user is unable to engage with it in any way possible. Twenty Six Comments from members of your community pointing stuff out, and the user just goes "no political ideas", as if them spouting their hateful bigotry in their stories and reviews and shoutbox contributions isn't fundamentally political.
As someone with English as a Second Language, I think I'm in a position to say that using google translate is not good enough for communication, as it cuts out all the nuance a seasoned user learns over time.
Please Joe, do the right thing, prepare a proper set of rules and proper moderation guidelines using the feedback from your community, and ban liuzixuan.
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 06/19/20 05:53 pm
Anyone with a shred of common sense would realize that this is nothing more than a troll, and the fact that this hate-speech is allowed to continue here on the site is nothing short of heartbreaking. The entire time that you are dragging your heels and not doing anything to put a stop to it, is more time that this individual continues to wreak havoc on what was once a wonderful site for TG fiction.

Your responsibility is to your site's REAL members, not to random trolls. Ban liuzixuan.
- Shadow Dragon on 06/19/20 08:23 pm
I'm addicted to reading the imaginative stories that appear on this site. I've found beautiful worlds, disturbing tales, gross stuff, ... and was never bothered. Liuzixuan, is really off-putting for a reader. I can read some chinese but really ... this guy is just trouble. Stop the havoc. Ban him.
- SilverStars on 06/19/20 08:44 pm
I feel everything that needs to be said has been said eloquently and succinctly enough by people far more of both of those things than I am, and yet I see nothing done. A user is abusing the system you claim is moderated, and yet nothing has been done. I don't really see how he's allowed what he does and yet the people here who have pointed out exactly what rules this person have broken are treated as though we're overreacting.

I want to understand, really I do, why this person is allowed their free reign over you, Joe. Is he bribing you, threatening you, holding your family hostage? What is it? We, the users of this site who have followed the rules and helped build this community have a right to to know why it is this person can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it.

If there's a legitimate answer here, I'd like to know it.
- Hikaro on 06/19/20 10:31 pm
Isn’t the United States a country that loves freedom? Why are there so many people in the "anti-freedom" that you have been brainwashed by the left? ''I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it''Voltaire said
- liuzixuan on 06/20/20 12:33 am
Rather than misplace a prisoner without wronging any innocent person. Voltaire
- liuzixuan on 06/20/20 12:35 am
Bro, just stop
- LLB45 on 06/20/20 12:39 am
Legally sure, you can say pretty much whatever you want. Legal freedoms do not extend to immunity from social repercussions for assholes. If moderating a particular user were requiring an excessive amount of my time in the background, I would have already banned them from a laziness perspective, and had no ethical qualms about doing so.
- ElendRenoux on 06/20/20 02:14 am
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is not from Voltaire, it actually originates with an English author named Evelyn Beatrice Hall in 1906.

Another quote often misattributed to the 18th century philosopher Voltaire is: "To determine the true rulers of any society, all you must do is ask yourself this question: Who is it that I am not permitted to criticize?" the original source is mostly agreed to be from an essay in 1993 by an American Neo-n*** Kevin Strom.

Free-speech absolutists love misattributing quotes to Voltaire to create the illusion of authority and legitimacy in the name of protecting spouting deliberately false information, offensive or discriminatory speech and/or speech inciting violence.
- Wispy on 06/20/20 04:23 am
If you're not going to disallow open hatred and bigotry, can you at least introduce a mute user function so I don't have to wade through garbage?
- flowerboy on 06/20/20 05:55 am
Drank and Old Crow and got the courage to speak my mind. Lets do this.

Because of not having contributed nearly enough to this site, I do not have a leg to stand on here, but I will state this: this place is not America. Welcome to TG Storytime. Joe, that fella deciding what to do here, yeah, the one with the name TGStorytime actually rules this joint. I'm glad we are given the chance to express our concerns and hope there will be a resolution to make everybody happy. If I'm not happy, guess I'll go elsewhere, but I'll still read what we have here. There's, like, 9 years worth of stories here to catch up on.

Oh, yeah, that first bit was to defend and support Joe. I'm someone who will always give somebody another chance. We're all human and mistakes happen, but we should strive to correct them, so...

As for Liuzixuan (the heck does that mean anyways? Cute!? WHAT!!?), my statement goes double for you; this is not America. Don't be hiding behind foreign laws (remember, we're not in America) and expect us to abide by them. We're talking about the laws Joe established for this piece of sovereignty opened towards us Trans authors.

Now I do not know how this works. I get that Joe will listen to us and hear what we all have to say, but I get that banning people doesn't happen often (if at all). I saw Derby Ghost got something from having directly attacked somebody, and, honestly, I think Liawhateveryourcalled has done more and won. They got the spotlight and are the talk of the entire week. Attention is what an author loves to get from their writing. Liubabe here got it. Fictionmania didn't want it and banned their a** (no idea how bad it is there, nor care). It was enough that a group there didn't like it, and, obviously, we here don't either.

Now does that call for a ban? How long do those cheap 1-star fliers hold up on the front page? A week or so? Let them pass and be collected with the rest of their quality. If the spamming continues with a good amount of hate, I'm pretty damn sure Joe is going to (belatedly) act.

Again, I drank whiskey. I have a lot to say that is fueled with "fire water" and I don't remember half of it. :)
- CasLon on 06/20/20 06:13 am
Also since liuzixuan is now false quoting voltaire and combined with some of the other stuff my assessment of the risk they might be a 4chan etc troll has risen to about just above 35% if I had to quantify it. Its not a high estimate and not even a coin toss but it is there. I am still like 65% sure they are who they portray themselves as.

In the off chance this is true, I would suggest considering removing and/or making sure you avoid having identifiable info on this site.
- Wispy on 06/20/20 11:13 am
liuzixuan

Yes, America is a land that loves freedom. But mature Americans know that freedom is paid for with responsibility. In the instant case, that means the responsibility to follow the rules. It's a maturity that has nothing to do with being 'brainwashed' by anyone.

It's actually quite simple when you get down to it. If you can't follow the rules, you don't deserve the freedom those rules secure for you.
- PJWright on 06/20/20 08:34 pm
i think if you think liuzixuan's stories should be banned on political grounds, that's equivalent to wanting to ban video games for violence. "the wave makes people cis and stops modifications" is just part of a setting, like gods in an anime who are unknowingly racist (bad analogy i know). while it may reflect his political opinions, we cannot ban the stories for such a shallow reason.
on the scenario itself, i can't see why anyone would take offense to such a situation occuring, when stories have been written on this site containing more insidious/oppressive forces that disrespect and twist identities.
however, i still believe he should be banned cuz of abhorrent review replies. also, i am unable to find any rules he has broken
- grateful_deddo on 06/21/20 10:07 am
@grateful_deddo As a trans author writing tgtf stories, I can explain the sort of relationship trans people have the medium.

Many of us come to the medium when we are still "eggs" a point of time where we don't yet realise we are trans or don't know about trans people and transition as a concept. We are drawn to it because of the incongruence we feel and these stories often are something we relate to one way or another. Sometimes these stories help us grasp what the incongruence we are feeling actually is.

I know it was that way for me. I was still a kid when the anime Ranma 1/2 set me on a path googling about wanting to be a girl which led me to the knowledge I was trans. This is in fact one of the reasons myself a host of trans authors still post on this site and others like it, these sites draw those eggs and by having these stories here we can reach those eggs and gently provide them the framing and knowledge they need to come to terms with themselves and hatch.

But our relationship with the genre of tgtf doesn't end there, it is a lot more complex. A lot of stories in the genre are not about us, do not mention us and often we in our early stages will insert ourselves into them and immerse ourselves into the narration. Other stories do things in ignorance that make you wonder what it would be like for the trans people in the genre, often due to some piece of worldbuilding that in its ignorance runs counter to our experiences. We learn to live with that, we are not the intended audience of those stories. I repeat, we have no problem with the stories not meant for us, we can deal.

What Liuzixuan has written however isn't written in ignorance of us or ignoring us, it is very intentional in how it references us. You can see Liu's politics in their stories, deliberate mentions of trans people becoming cis and having their surgeries undone, of gay people no longer being gay everyone is suddenly straight or that there are no longer any leftists. This hasn't been done unknowingly, unintentionally or in ignorance. Their beliefs are clearly stated in their replies to reviews: "I believe homosexuality will go to hell." they state after telling someone to stop being gay.
- Trashlyn on 06/21/20 11:38 am
I’m really ignorant, I don’t know at all, I have a tendency to bipolar depression
- liuzixuan on 06/21/20 01:25 pm
I don’t want tgstorytime to be a fictionnania. There are stories of transsexual surgery everywhere. fictionnania can even be a transsexual surgery. Even my favorite writer, bobh, is also starting to write cross-dressing stories. Currently, only paulgirl can be considered a tg writer.
- liuzixuan on 06/21/20 01:58 pm
I know I’m a new member here but I’ve been reading in the shadows for a long time. I wouldn’t normally rant like this but Trashlyn said something that kind of triggered me so I have to speak my mind.
There are many who put their politics into their stories. Some of it is minor and easy to overlook. Some of it is blatant and goes so far as to display a certain level of hatred towards one group or another. Of course, they don’t generate this kind of uproar if the majority happen to agree with it. There has been more than a couple well known authors in this community who are guilty of this but because they are well liked and their political views are those of the majority of the community it is accepted and even praised. I enjoy reading tg fantasy/sci-fi stories of quality but I’m very much a Conservative. I’m not part of the LGBT community but as a Christian I fully believe in being open, accepting, and respecting to everyone. As for Xian, I’m not sure what to think. Is this an effort to attack and destroy this community from China? The current climate and the very divisive nature of the universe makes me wonder. Is this someone who wants to fit in but doesn’t have the command of the English language enough to overcome the very different structures of the Chinese languages and English? As is readily apparent Google translate is not up to the task. It is also apparent Xian needs to learn basic English but is there somewhere that these stories can be posted in their original language so they can be read properly without things getting lost in translation? If Xian is legitimately trying to be a tg author I’m sure they’d appreciate the suggestion. Maybe there is a Chinese adult reddit storyboard or something like that?

I apologize for the long winded rant. Hopefully it is taken as intended and gives you something to think about. Thanks for reading and thank you authors for writing.
- Jeb on 06/21/20 02:04 pm
Hi Jeb,

As another reader, I think you need to re-evaluate who you are defending. You profess to advocate "being open, accepting, and respecting to everyone", but the person you are choosing to defend:

* says the way other people deal with gender issues worldwide is wrong
* tells gay people they should stop being gay
* reposted racist articles blaming black people for ruining Detroit and South Africa
* denounces any author for writing non-magical transformation stories as not a "tg writer"

None of these actions seem particularly open or accepting to me.
- Uncreative on 06/21/20 02:46 pm
I've been a member of this site for a really long time. If anything, the UI is easy to use and there's a broad enough readership that I can reach a decent amount of people with my writing. I don't want to leave, but this person is singlehandedly dropping this website into chaos, spamming the front page with low-effort nonsense and just generally being toxic to civil discourse. One person is greatly harming the user experience and something should be done about them.

With that being said, beyond liuzixuan (whose comments are beyond gross) I really really disagree with any sort of purity tests going forward. There are many stories on this website I could call highly offensive, including many by self-ID'd trans authors, but such is one of the downsides of writing for a site like this and I accepted that seven years ago when I joined in the first place. Similarly, my own writing has caused offense to some people who have called me "truscum" for it (LOL) and otherwise harassed me as a result. My point is just that who gets to wage the purity tests?? Do we decide that everyone self-professedly to the political right of Bernie Sanders gets Thanos'd? A lot of people can consider a lot of different things offensive, and "political grounds" is as nebulous a reason for moderation as any.

All I'm saying is that by all means, please remove this toxic user from this website. But please be careful of the precedent. Certain members here can be rather militant about things. :/ That's just my opinion though.
- Paper Moon on 06/21/20 03:18 pm
I think we are straying into another topic (again, I am thinking that, not knowing that for a fact). I do know this whole mess started because of lia... I'm done trying that name, you all know who I'm talking about (sorry, I speak what I type aloud to hear if I am sounding reasonable), they posted some stuff we don't like, but wasn't this discussion created to talk about Joe's management of the site? But, since we are focused on this "China Man" (their words, not mine; check the user's profile), I saw a few comments from such-such say they didn't see any rules broken by the recent talk of the town. Is that true?
- CasLon on 06/21/20 06:40 pm
Uncreative I’m sorry you missed my point. I’m not defending anyone. I’m merely saying that there have been things that have been written by popular authors that are offensive and very politically motivated but they aren’t called out because they are popular and many here share those same beliefs. You can’t call out one without pointing out the other. With that being said, the hatred that has been spewed by the individual in question in response to some of the critiques and incorporated into stories is unwelcome. I’m sure the individual in question is well aware of this. My suspicion is that it was intentional but without evidence I can only be suspicious.
- Jeb on 06/21/20 06:45 pm
liuzixuan you do realise what tg/transgender is right? You keep talking about what is real tg or transgender fiction?

Transsexual and transgender are pretty much synonyms, two words for the same thing. I don't know if this is a language barrier or translation issue for you, but the people you refer to as transsexuals as are more commonly called transgender people or trans people.

TG fiction as in what this place is for is a genre that includes stories revolving gender bender, stories revolving trans people and all or any other stories that explore the bending, switching, changing etc of sex or gender.

There is no *real* TG fiction as you keep referring to, only your personal preferences.
- Trashlyn on 06/22/20 12:36 pm
I'll say this. I've been around the TG/TF community since it was just a niche in alt.sex.stories. People like liuzixuan pop up with regularity, if less so than places like 4Chan. There are authors on Fictionmania that I wish I could permanently block, so I never had to look at their horrible grammar and spelling even in their summaries. Here, I wish that you could do that as well. Just "block" the author so that you never see anything about them, ever again, in searches, browsing, or anything else. Joe - the problem with having a public forum is that there are people that will take advantage of it to air their own personal agenda. It's not really a problem when it's the agenda of most of the people on here, but when it's an agenda that repeatedly offends people to the point that they want to leave, you have to think about asking them to tone it down. In this case, you have a bit of an obligation to those people (this definitely does not include me) who contribute the content that helps to draw people the site itself. Is this person contributing in a positive way to the site? I'd say no, just based on the judgement that what has been written by them is slapdash, non-edited, even by themselves, dream/wish fulfillment, and with a poorly disguised socio-political agenda. I can forgive everything in that list except the first two. I've seen a lot of Mary Sue's, I've seen amazing stories that had great plots (yet read like someone wrote it, then put every sentence in a blender), I've seen political, anti-American, anti-gun, anti-(insert noun or verb here) rants, and I've seen fantastically engaging, well written, well edited stories. Unfortunately, liuzixuan hasn't put in the effort to try to learn from their mistakes, and from the posting here, doesn't intend to do so in the future. Quoting from others to try to rebut criticism is an attempt to turn the criticism around and blame their faults on the initial critic. This is NOT healthy for the group.

I'm not saying to delete the user and everything they've written. Maybe a mark on their author page that their content is potentially offensive, and/or remove their ability to post new work without passing it through an editor for review.
- Bookworm on 06/22/20 03:39 pm
The people here who don't give two cents about LGBT equality are almost ironic in a funny way. Remember, the types of people who are anti transgender and anti homosexual would likely ALSO be anti gender transformation fiction, if they knew about its existence. Do you think Tractor Roy from Heartland USA is going to be cool with you after finding your transformation fiction stash as long as it doesn't contain LGBT references? Not likely. He's going to think you're gay. And if you're having to hide something that you're afraid people will think you're gay for, it would make sense to support LGBT equality, at least in the anonymous communities of the internet, such as this website.
- Heyyayyyay on 06/23/20 06:18 am
Over the past 200 years, European immigrants have mainly created the United States, defended the United States, loved the United States, and sincerely recognized that the United States is the most free, the most prosperous and prosperous on this planet. They feel lucky and proud to be Americans. Today, many new immigrants, leftist politicians, and ethnic minorities are full of American shortcomings and even hate the United States. Shouldn't such people return to their ancestor's country?
Cao Changqing said
- liuzixuan on 06/23/20 08:18 am
> Over the past 200 years...

I don't see how this post is in any way relevant to the issue at hand of low quality stories being spammed and the administrations refusal to follow their own Terms.
- MayD on 06/23/20 09:06 am
Entirely off topic Liu and "most free" hahahahahahahahahahaha omfg hahahahahahahahahahahaha

You're talking about a country that was built on the enslavement of black people. Not to mention, America has approx 4.4% of world's population, has almost a quarter of the world's prisoner. Many of whom are used for penal labor where they are almost used as slave labor for corporations and are often disenfranchised as in most states felons lose their right to vote for life.

Combine this with a police and judicial system which systematically targets African Americans and other people of colour, what we have here is a Nation that is still built on slavery.

"Most free" my a**.
- Wispy on 06/23/20 09:49 am
Trying to apply a nation's laws and freedoms to a website is a really sad attempt at defending offensive posts. Firstly regardless of server location a nation's laws have nothing to do with the websites rules. It's the world wide web not the 'US wide web'. The rules of the site are determined by the creator. Secondly it seems you don't even understand the intentions of the laws and freedoms you are trying to defend yourself with which is a common trait of anyone who tries to hide behind such things to spew their hateful and hurtful ideals and beliefs on others.
- Rushica on 06/23/20 12:04 pm
Alright, y'all gotta stop now. No one cares about your politics. A lot of us come to this site in order to get away from all that. Y'all are completely off topic and now just turning this into a s*** show.

Liu, just stop talking. All you're doing is inciting. Write whatever the hell you want in your stories, just stop clogging up the homepage.

Joe, you should consider taking this discussion down now since all of the bad eggs have come in here to ruin the point. It's completely derailed now and it doesn't look like we're gonna get back on topic any time soon.
- Ryan A on 06/23/20 04:34 pm
"Off Topic" the topic has always been, throughout the whole discussion "Liuzixuan is a spammer with poor grasp of English posting stories that are so fundamentally transphobic and homophobic it got their a** banned on fictionmania, and they should be banned as they're making the community on this site actively worse by pushing away long established authors."
Honestly, Liu's the one who contributed to the derailing by not addressing any of the criticisms we've thrown their way whatsoever, not in a way where it comes off as them actually reading what we're saying.
Hell you contributed nothing to the discussion by going "eats popcorn" higher up in the thread, and now you come here thirty plus messages later telling Joe to close this thread and saying the conversation's been derailed. What, has the movie you've been enjoying reached a plot point you find dumb?
Bottom line is, this is now a 59 comment thread from which two things arise:
-Joe needs to step up his moderation game.
-Liuzixuan should be banned.
And we have not derailed from those two points.
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 06/23/20 05:03 pm
In addition to what Katie said, considering the vast majority of responses to this thread are people calling Liu out, and explaining how their transphobia is wrong.

> No one cares about your politics.

This is just completely false. It'd be more correct for you to say that you don't care about our politics. Which I understand, but claiming that no one does is just hilariously wrong as evidenced by this very thread.
- MayD on 06/23/20 05:11 pm
FURTHERMORE Literally EVERYTHING is political. Me sitting on my a** typing this message as an autistic trans lesbian with cPTSD is political. Me breathing is political. Art is inherently political. It is inescapable. If you think you're getting away from it by coming here, it means you're ignoring the large amount of politics in all the stories.
That's another reason Liu ought to be banned. The politics in a number of stories are iffy and frustrating, but they elicit a groan, an eyeroll, a shrug. Liu's stories elicit a visceral feeling of panic and anxiety and disgust.
I envy your ability to turn your mind off to these things. I do. But for many of the authors who have spoken up in this thread, we are incapable of turning it off, because our very existence is political.
Do consider that next time you get annoyed at marginalised people voicing their worries.
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 06/23/20 05:13 pm
"No one cares about politics"

Honestly, you're just pathetic. Liu is the one that has made this political, belittling LGBT people and their struggles, basically taunting a huge part of the people that use this site, but we are the one "making it political" ? We're just trying to get a troll banned, not completely clear the site of all the fetichist content I'm sure you like so much.

You're just hiding behind the "this is political" argument because you can't even be bothered to try to understand that these kind of trolls can actually hurt others, and you would rather have people suffer in silence instead, for your own comfort.

Tell you what. If this thread and all its "politics" hurts your feelings so much, why do you keep reading the comments in it ? Just go away, don't look at the thread again. If it's so easy for us to ignore a troll, why couldn't you just do the same ?
- Skadia on 06/23/20 05:26 pm
Ryan A, if no one cares about our "politics", this comment thread surely could have fooled me. You've got a number of established authors here calling out the trolling (not even referring to my one-hit-wonder self). If your sole purpose here is to sit back and read the stories (stories provided by authors who are now agitated) then you might want to start caring about the environment here. I can guarantee you that if people like Liuzixuan start seeping in and turning the front page listings into a pseudo Craigslist discussion board, lounge nihilists like "y'all" will find no more pleasure here.
- Heyyayyyay on 06/23/20 06:11 pm
Hmmm...And here I was thinking this was an open place. Guess I was wrong. Can't help you guys if you're all so filled with hate. It's really not a good thing to bottle up. Call yourselves tolerant but refuse to see anything other than your own viewpoints. As for Lui being transphobic. Have you been to China? They shoot you dead for that.
- Ryan A on 06/23/20 07:21 pm
I still think that banning Liuzixuan for anything other than being a flaming racist troll is a slippery slope leading to purity politics. He needs to absolutely be removed from the site but I dislike the ideological consolidation that people are attempting to carry out here, and the blurring of the line between definitely offensive (e.g. outright n***-ry) and simply controversial is also a dangerous line to go down. I'm personally tired of trans spaces for discourse as well as artistry being drowned out by communist-tier speech policing. How about we just ban political militancy instead? It'd clean up Liuzixuan's garbage as well as the entirety of the bickering going on in this thread.
- Paper Moon on 06/23/20 07:45 pm
(the censored word above is "Na zi." Oml.)
- Paper Moon on 06/23/20 07:46 pm
Well, this website isn't run by China or {insert second apples to oranges comparison of random country with the bar set low for human rights}.

Furthermore, places that shot you dead for being transgender would also probably shoot you dead just for getting off on gender transformation fiction. So it's kind of suspicious how Liuzixuan sees one as the okay and the other as not. If the Chinese KGB can crack down on him/her/they for being gay, the can surely crack down on him/her/they for reading this type of "subversive" literature as well. Frankly I'm surprised this website isn't blocked on Chinese ISPs. Unless the person in question isn't based in China at all.
- Heyyayyyay on 06/23/20 07:49 pm
I don't see how comparing this site to China is in any way productive. Just because one place has things bad (lots of places do) doesn't mean we shouldn't improve things here.

As for this site being an open place - if being an open place for you means the right to insult and belittle groups of people, then yes, you're right. This is not an open place. It's called the paradox of intolerance. 100% tolerance never works, people will always take advantage of that. That's why to be tolerant, one must be intolerant of intolerance. If you have a problem with that, feel free to leave.
- EevieBeevie on 06/23/20 08:09 pm
"In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise." - Karl Popper

Except they left that part off of that viral infographic which twisted and simplified the paradox to the point that it lost its original meaning. In fact, Popper was talking specifically about violent rather than rhetorical intolerance:

"But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."

In any case, this is TG Storytime. Why does everything here need to contribute to a specific set of opinions?
- Paper Moon on 06/23/20 08:55 pm
Papermoon you keep decrying the slippery slope that seems to haunt you at night.
Multiple people in the thread have pretty much stated live and let live with mist of the content on this site, no one is asking for all stories to be filtered based on transphobia, what people are talking about is a single low effort spammy user who can't keep their grossly offensive bigoted on grounds of racism, homophobia and transphobia views out of the shoutbox, reviews or low effort google translate stories. Who also keeps quoting articles from a single bigoted Chinese American opinion writer as if they are gospel truth.

And back to the slippery slope argument, even if Joe bans the users do you honestly think tgstorytime of all places and JoeSixPack will suddenly descend into the slippery slope that keeps you up at night.
- Wispy on 06/24/20 12:18 am
OK! I guess it's my time to throw my hat in to the ring.
The trolling thing needs to stop. Phobia and things related to that need to stop and racism to we can't pick what or who we are anyway so stop hating. For example I had noway of piking the road I'm going the road to be the way I am to day due to Cancer, and then people say yes you did.
But you be wrong.
We are all here on this stone and nobody of us is getting of this rock alive.
So, it's time face up and take some masseurs to make sure that happens.
Like love, understanding that we are all alien to each other, and take little effort to change that like say hi and what is your name.
Peace, you need to start with you self their If you can be at peace with you self, how can you be with others.

All Love to you all.


P
- theprotectors on 06/24/20 06:53 am
You all do know that when you see a new story posted you can clearly see who the author is so you have the choice to ignore it. If you’re concerned about your story getting pushed down the board there is a “recent” tab that’ll show every story posted in the last ten days. This fiery, fractious debate is exactly what Liuzixuan wants and you all walked right into the trap.
- Jeb on 06/24/20 01:31 pm
Joe - if he/she wants it, why are you allowing and condoning it, as well as coddling them? I mean, even BigCloset works to make sure that one author doesn't overwhelm the front page.

I do understand your point, yes - people are free to ignore authors if they wish. The problem is that even the front page posts are painful to read.
- Bookworm on 06/24/20 03:12 pm
Bookworm, hi. Please, would you clarify a confused perspective I have here: you are aware of that being Jeb above your post, not Joe, right? Forgive me if I have assumed incorrectly and thought (that can be dangerous) there was a mistaken identity going on there. My lame excuse was on how Jeb and Joe do look similar.
- CasLon on 06/25/20 03:45 am
Nobody complains about any other content on here but if we are going to support free speech and stand against censorship or bigotry
then how can anyone complain when that tolerance and acceptance swings
in some other direction?

Where DO you draw the line?

That’s what story tags&descriptions are for.
-and-
In his post,
Joe did say,
“If you feel there is content or activity which needs moderation,
be sure to send an email to the site and we will look into it.”

I know first hand that he does.

I do find it tragically ironic right now how social media (in general) has brought horrendous consequences to the exercise of First Amendment Rights.

People get in all kinds of trouble just for speaking their mind...
talk about bullying.

Hate speech goes in all directions.

Are we going to be any better
than that?

I do surely hope that more people
will see that pushing for
censorship
is OBVIOUSLY no path to Freedom.

It’s just more of the same wretchedness that many of us have already faced from others and will just lead back into MORE conflict-
not resolution,progress or Liberty.

Maybe if Joe simply offers censorship with FEE Speech
then the people here will understand.

After all,
If we really don’t want total
Freedom of Speech then there
WILL
ultimately be a price to pay...

I have not complained or railed against anyone here-
even when I’ve had miscommunications with people in the comments section I’ve still tried to communicate with respect&maturity.

If we make room for everyone just remember:
You can never make everyone happy all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln did say that you could fool all of the people SOME of the time but that is easier.

Be yourself and those who respect that and appreciate you
will support,encourage and appreciate you.

The opinions of those who won’t
just don’t really matter,
Do they?

...and everyone here
is still entitled to a full
100% Guaranteed
Money-Back Refund,
Right?

We are all free to do,think or say whatever we choose to here-
Do we keep it that way?

How can only one person run so many people off,anyway?

If they are doing this on purpose,
then don’t give in.

Their first story was actually in Chinese-
If they’re just ignorant or confused then it’s very unfortunate indeed that so many people have come unglued about it.

Anyway,
what it all comes down to is this-
Joe does this for free,
so it’s up to him.

If he wants to go with maximum free speech then let’s give him some appreciation for what
he has done here for...
Free.

If we don’t like it,
then perhaps we should try to do better on our own.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe he’s just not interested in opening up a big ol’ can of worms by giving into everyone’s whining?

If he starts out with this
one bad egg now by instituting
a policy of censorship
then what kind of new stress
will this cause him and
how much of a drain will it become on his time,attention span
and well-being?

It’s already a lot to do all of this
for free,
just to be ungratefully criticized for not kowtowing to a bunch of whiners...

Sheesh.
- Griffin on 06/25/20 06:32 am
PS

Yes,
I do speak as an American but for those who are otherwise I do still simply assert that free speech is to be chosen over censorship at all costs.

Anyone who at all disagrees is obviously (fortunately) free to assert otherwise.
- Griffin on 06/25/20 06:38 am
Griffin it wouldn't matter if where a citizen of mars... We all are welcome here even Americans. Well I am from the sun...Joking..Sweden actually, So I am all so welcome I guess. I only wish you all should stop fitting and get along.
- theprotectors on 06/25/20 07:53 am
Free speech is only valuable when what is being said is worth hearing. As far as I can tell, Liuxwhatever has not said anything worth hearing. I may be in the militant minority, but I for one would in favor of simply kicking out anyone who posts right-leaning views altogether.
- AlexaTiresias on 06/25/20 07:53 am
PS

Yes,
I do speak as an American but for those who are otherwise I do still simply assert that free speech is to be chosen over censorship at all costs.

Anyone who at all disagrees is obviously (fortunately) free to assert otherwise.
- Griffin on 06/25/20 09:51 am
Could we restate what rules that were bent and/or broken?

Really, from what I've seen, I don't care how illegible the stories are/were because I didn't read them (if I had, I wouldn't care about them anyways), but the questionable statements made by the author (the ones not found in their stories) were more than questionable (I read those). Political stuff isn't my ballpark and I can't tell if you all are talking about being American or good ole Greek freedom of speech (those old dudes philosophized first, not Americans). Now if we point out what lines in the sand that Liu stepped over, that "might" get this judgement straight to the point (no promises).
- CasLon on 06/25/20 05:08 pm
"Rule 9: Stories with multiple chapters should be submitted under a single story entry. Not as separate stories. Upload the first chapter of your story, then go to Manage Stories in your account to add additional chapters. If you have trouble with this, please contact the site administrator or ask a friend to help you."

That was broken on a major scale when 8 chapters were posted as separate couple hundred word stories,Joe I believe fixed it after they were reported. I would say there are still 2 more instances of the same story that could be argued to be apparent of this also.

"Rule 2: It is up to the author to maintain their account and alert the administrators when problems occur. The site cannot guarantee that it will find all possible problems relating to abusive reviews, plagiarism and other issues."

"Rule 3: By submitting a story, it is assumed that you are the writer of the work and have not violated any rights or laws in submitting it."

So I believe Liu did copy past an online article as a story, possibly infringing copyright/plagiarism. That and the copy pasting of the highly racist opinion piece in one of their own reviews which would again probably count as copyright/plagiarism and an abusive review (Joe did remove it).

In Joe's defense, he has done the minimum required by the following clause where reports were made:

"Submissions found to be in violation of these rules may be removed and the author's account suspended at the discretion of the site administrators and/or moderators. The site administrators reserve the right to modify these rules as needed. The site administrators will also make changes when necessary to stories and submissions to adhere to these rules, and reserves the right to make these alterations (merging story chapters into a single entry, removing pornographic images, etc.) without notice."

That said this does ultimately say enforcement of the rule and changing of the rules is entirely at Joe's discretion.

What people are saying is however that the impact of this user warrants either a one off intervention beyond the extent of these rules or for the rules to be changed to limit spamming multiple new stories in a story space of time (multiple new chapters within a single story is not an issue), or a low base quality benchmark or a mild code of conduct.
- Wispy on 06/26/20 03:51 am
Wispy, thank you for providing those rules and what a lot of authors here have been asking Joe to establish here. I really do appreciate your responding to my request.

I have one last question: is Joe alone? I realize I have stated Joe practically does dictate what goes on on this site, but even rulers have a retinue. Why? Pretty much for the head honcho to slack off some of that stress and manage to retain some sanity. Just saying here: I want to shut down and check out of reality whenever any event/scenario becomes overwhelming. Joe (you, the TG Storytime person), assuming you currently have no assistance, do you have anybody you can/may trust to help you out here?
- CasLon on 06/26/20 04:14 am
The site really only has 9 rules and all seem to be related to plagiarism,no titles like "Untitled" no all caps and no "Must Read" etc, making sure stories are properly rated (child friendly to explicit), keeping titles and summaries kid-friendly, no posting images of p***.

Most of this is really about the site's liability.

There is really only mention of conduct between users (the mention of abusive reviews, NicoRobin was banned on multiple accounts over this), and it isn't a rule in itself.

This site could use a few rules concerning user conduct and possibly an addition to the rule on titles defining what a minimum quality submission is or how frequently new stories can be posted (with a caveat for it ultimately being up to Joe's discretion but users can report for it).
- Wispy on 06/26/20 05:13 am
Wow i jumbled the start of one of those lines, was having a massive coughing fit while writing it.
- Wispy on 06/26/20 05:15 am
It's worth noting as well, that there are some references to user conduct tucked away in the Terms page. Section 5 there relates to it, and there are a few things that Liu has broken in there.

The first is 5 (a): upload, post or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, or otherwise objectionable;

Liu's racist post that was deleted certainly crosses this line, as well as the pretty mask-off transphobia and homophobia both in the stories they wrote and the reviews and shoutbox posts.

But they also broke this one as well.

5 (e): disrupt the flow of normal dialogue or negatively affect the ability of others to chat in real time;

Aside from their spam both in story posting and in the shoutbox, a number of people here have argued why Liu's very presence on the site negatively affects their time here.

Personally, this is why I'm frustrated, because it feels like the administration doesn't want to enforce these terms here. Nor has the administration been communicating at all, so it feels like we're banging our heads against a brick wall. We're only angry because we care about the site and want it to be the best it can be.
- MayD on 06/26/20 11:14 am
It's worth noting as well, that there are some references to user conduct tucked away in the Terms page. Section 5 there relates to it, and there are a few things that Liu has broken in there.

The first is 5 (a): upload, post or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, or otherwise objectionable;

Liu's racist post that was deleted certainly crosses this line, as well as the pretty mask-off transphobia and homophobia both in the stories they wrote and the reviews and shoutbox posts.

But they also broke this one as well.

5 (e): disrupt the flow of normal dialogue or negatively affect the ability of others to chat in real time;

Aside from their spam both in story posting and in the shoutbox, a number of people here have argued why Liu's very presence on the site negatively affects their time here.

Personally, this is why I'm frustrated, because it feels like the administration doesn't want to enforce these terms here. Nor has the administration been communicating at all, so it feels like we're banging our heads against a brick wall. We're only angry because we care about the site and want it to be the best it can be.
- MayD on 06/26/20 09:26 pm
The way I see it, it's extremely simple.

Transgender people are literally the most discriminated against minority in the world. Many governments barely classify them as people; they range from merely not enjoying protection from discriminatory practices to outright facing state-sponsored murder if found. I think it is no surprise that transgender individuals prioritize their safety in all their actions, for good reason.

Joe might be guilty of being lazy with enforcing his own existing rules at best. The outsized reaction this news post has garnered doesn't accuse Joe of wrongdoing. It does, however, show that Joe's current rules do not adequately assure transgender individuals that they are free from persecution while using his site.

Most of these reactions are coming from the site's most prolific authors, who over the course of years have, in my opinion, elevated this site from merely peddling fetish fuel to creating a space where many authors have created engaging, uplifting, and thoughtful prose. Doing so little to offer these authors safe haven means that these authors will simply take their works elsewhere to places they find safe instead; several of the individuals in this very thread have already begun doing so.

There's no other way to say this: Joe's lack of concern for the transgender community will eventually result in the site's most talented authors leaving, regressing the site to merely a quick stopover for non-transgender fetishists.

I think Joe has a very important choice to make. Does he want to listen to authors that have freely volunteered millions of words of prose to his site for no return, or does he want to let them walk away?
- Uncreative on 06/27/20 12:46 am
Wow Joe! You are going to throw away this site and let everyone walk over liuzixuan. Are you going to start printing their one page bigotry stories on Sick Puppy Press next?

Do the right thing.
- Terrigen on 06/27/20 04:52 am
Btw the Advanced Search Feature is broken. If you select to only searcch for complete stories it stills displays incomplete stories
- helzblack on 06/27/20 11:58 am
We're not persecuted here as trans people... that is an insult to the power of the word and to minorities across the world (including trans people) who are actually in physical danger on a daily basis. The only one who actually seems to be harassing people (beyond Liuzixuan of course) is NicoRobin and his obsession with lesbian sex (ooh, can we do something about him now, too? he has yet another alt account!), and you can make of that what you will. Again, I would definitely agree that a lot of the stories on this website are obnoxious fetish fuel, but let's not pretend that the transgender/transsexual and fetishist populations here don't keep to themselves for the most part.
- Paper Moon on 06/27/20 12:02 pm
It's a sad state of affairs that trans folk must be made to contend with crap like that on a site for transgender fiction. In my experience it's best to ignore people like that, and they'll eventually find some other place to troll.
- Daniela A Wolfe on 06/28/20 09:31 pm
Congrats on the username change, Daniela. Also, forgive me for using this discussion to congratulate. If I had alternate means, rather than this forum, I would've used the other spot.

As for ignoring trolls, I can't say that is a good thing because they will go elsewhere. I don't like the thought that they will continue their toxic nature on some other site. Ignoring a problem is a lot like that saying about not doing anything about evil; it is worse than committing the deed. I am not 100% on this but I believe that ignorance is worse because we've associated that "evil" as the normal behavior of someone, typical, and just shrug it off regardless if we're or not the victim and it is someone else getting hurt. The lack of a critical response on handling this (possibly, now) out of hand situation is upsetting for a lot of people here.

I will be blunt here: I have experienced more welcoming treatment towards TG authors on another site than this TG-focused site. That should say something for here.
- CasLon on 06/29/20 04:26 am
Thank you

Indeed, but arguing with him isn't doing any good and frankly unless Joe bans him(please do Joe) there's not a lot to be done. Even then if he's even slightly computer savvy there's nothing to stop him from returning with a new account. He won't be reasoned with, so even if we do rid ourselves of him, I don't think he'll stop pushing his viewpoints. Trolls are like puppies if you feed them they won't go away.
- Daniela A Wolfe on 06/29/20 11:53 am
Based on a recent response Joe gave to a report on liuzixuan's latest "story", it does not seem like he is interested in moderating liuzixuan.
- Syenite on 06/29/20 01:32 pm
Thank you, Daniela, for clarifying on this situation. I agree that doing anything to help this matter seems pointless now and I don't know what I could do. That was why I had asked (or, at least, put out there) if Joe required any help around here. I would think that the sooner we have the Discussion Board up and running, the quicker we could communicate outside the areas reserved for Reviews (here too).
- CasLon on 06/30/20 05:11 am
So basically as things stand nothing has changed my mind about my next chapter posted being my last posted on this site, given Joe's response to all of this.

In fact on top of Joe's lackluster response, I have been given more cause to migrate off this site for good recently. Every day for the last week this site has been failing to stay online.

As it stands the math for me is simple: the site is a pain to post on due to having to reformat chapters to html and the verification delay, Joe not just allowing bigoted low quality users to spam up the site but also actively protecting them and finally there's the instability of this site's aging infrastructure.

I only post here to reach potential unhatched eggs and give them the trans fiction I would have wanted in their position. I'll regret moving on from here and leaving them behind, but it is what it is.
- Trashlyn on 06/30/20 09:50 am
Agreeing with Ashlyn here. I'll most likely be removing my stories in the next few days. I just don't feel comfortable having my work on a site that protects transphobia.

I am very disappointed by the administration's lack of response.
- MayD on 06/30/20 02:33 pm
CasLon - you are correct. I mistook 'Jeb' for 'Joe'.

Trashlyn - if you would, be sure to let people know where you go next.

Frankly, I hadn't seen a lot of 'transphobia' in the works I skimmed. What I saw was atrocious grammar and spelling, political garbage, and a mass of gibberish poorly disguised as a plotline. I guess you could get transphobia out of it, but it'd be like listening to the drunk declaiming on the corner - you could make just about anything out of the noises, depending on your mood.

As for Joe's lackluster response? He's probably like I am. I'm spending most of my time handling emergencies for other people rather than the sites that I administer for personal reasons. I'd give him a couple of weeks. Heck, I was supposed to have the weekend to catch up, and instead got calls (like last week) to spend all of my weekend fixing things that OTHERS couldn't be bothered to be inconvenienced to have fixed during the week. They want to be able to relax at home, and screw up MY weekend instead of their work day.
- Bookworm on 06/30/20 07:29 pm
It's a goddamn shame that nothing is being done or will be done to deal with the problems here. And to see so many talented people with quality stories to their names leave just because one person is allowed free reign to ignore the rules and be defended for it is an even greater shame.

I wish all of you who're leaving nothing but good luck. I hope there's a day when you come back to a better TG Storytime, but it seems like that day is very far distant if even possible.
- Hikaro on 06/30/20 11:06 pm
I may even pull my stories. After attempting to read liuzixuan's 'stories' (I use that term loosely), I am really starting to see what's got people so up in arms. It's one thing not police ideologies, but it's another entirely to let someone use your platform to spread hate. Joe, please do consider banning liuzixuan, even fictionmania has rejected his 'stories'.
- Daniela A Wolfe on 07/01/20 01:12 am
I really hope the people leaving post where they are going to.

I agree with Hikaro, it’s a shame they are choosing to do nothing and let bigotry run rampant on this site. Reddit just banned a bunch of subreddits for hate speech. Reddit is more friendly than TGStorytime. That’s sad.

Maybe they are tired of running the site and this is an easy way to kill it.
- Terrigen on 07/01/20 01:14 am
Going forward, I might not be posting my stories on this site. The ones that are here will remain for a time, but future stories will appear elsewhere unless TGS alters its course. I was frustrated when this site went down and required a server change when "Elysium Shining" had just completed and would have benefited from the traffic being told about the Amazon Kindle version. It has been a year since then, and we're seeing inaction where action is due. We've seen the man in charge saying the TG community benefits from this place's mere existence, instead; a site that uses harmful or fetishist terms for things I won't go into here.

Those of us who wish to keep some semblance of community going should do so, but the question we all have to ask is what part this site will play in that community. Joe will need to ask himself what part he wants to play in our community he alleges to be of benefit.

In all honesty, this Liu person seems like issues (on this site) that have come to a head because they were allowed to simmer for several years. The things they say in response to any of us, our feedback to their stories or otherwise, aren't helping our perception of them. Anyone could say the wrong thing, with or without linguistic barriers, but there comes a point where you have to put your foot down and say that certain behavior is not alright. That certain beliefs are dangerous and do not jive with our community.

So then, does anyone have some constructive thoughts to what we as a community can and should do? For those of us who are on Discord, perhaps a proper discussion is in order. For those who are not and would like to be, I recommend hitting up someone for an invite or link ours.
- Desert Willow on 07/01/20 01:24 am
@Bookworm: My main other place of posting is Scribblehub, the site largely has a weeb feel, Mr Simple paved the way for us with the site admin back before a bunch of us started posting there. The site has a dedicated transgender tag, Admin remove hate-spam 1 star ratings and has pretty good moderation + allows authors to moderate their stories comment sections.

Myself, Rosilys Inknose (QuietValerie) and a bunch of authors from here and elsewhere have carved ourselves out a corner of the site and we frequently get out stories up into the front-page trending.
- Trashlyn on 07/01/20 03:16 am
On that note, rest in peace Mr Simple, may your memory be a blessing, thank you for telling us all about Scribblehub.
Because yeah Liu's the matchstick that set off the gunpowder stock that's been stockpiled for years now on this site.
- Katie-the-Angel-Witch on 07/01/20 08:50 pm
I'm just a reader not an author, but very sad to see the length, depth, and pain in this long discussion. Let's all remember that Joe has every right to be a benevolent dictator, it's his site after all, but at the same time, I'd hate to see it go away (or become a slime pit) because of too much strife, technical problems, whatever, that drive away such great authors. Therefore I simply ask him to consider "turning the dials" however works best to keep the site as positive as possible for as many people as possible, even if that requires banning or limiting some people who ruin the fun for others.
- Day Dreamer on 07/02/20 03:01 am
So I haven't really commented so far because I'm not really an author, and my only contributions here have been as a beta reader and sounding board (and I guess editor, but to a much lesser extent and mostly on stuff that's still unpublished) for my friend girlwithaguitar. Because I don't have as much skin in the game as most other people here who have been sharing their experiences, I didn't feel like it was my place to post. But enough is enough, and I just can't keep quiet anymore.

Thr current state of things is unconscionable. You have a user here whois constantly spamming the Recent queue with garbage, drowning out good authors who write quality stories, and he's using this platform to spew hate for vulnerable people, including the demographic this site was made for. Nobody's asking for "a test of faith". It's not his beliefs that we're pissed about, it's his actions. He can have whatever beliefs he wants, all we're asking is that he keep them to himself and not use this site as a megaphone for spreading them. That's not a lot to ask. Pretty much every forum in existence has a whole laundry list of rules enumerating all kinds of things you can't do. Why should this place be any different? I'm old, I've been around for a long time, and any other forum I've ever been on would've banned liuzixuan for even a quarter of the things he's pulled here. Even without the hate, he would've been banned for crapflooding the Recent queue with ungrammatical, unreadable nonsense.

And speaking of my author friend, we talked a bit about this yesterday, and I helped her work on a new story. For now, she's going to be posting all her new work on Scribblehub, and she's been reposting her existing stories on there. Looking at my conversation with her, and looking at all the other posts here by authors who are going to either stop posting here or even pull their stories entirely, is it really worth it? You're facing a massive exodus of talent--of the very people who actually made this site into a place people want to keep coming back to--all over... some hateful crapflooder. Like, seriously, you're going to throw away some of your best authors just to protect one-page Google Translate trainwreck? Come on.
- Sunset on 07/02/20 04:28 am
One-page Google Translate trainwreck that is abusing the completed story feature to keep their crap on the front page of the website.

Come on, Joe, please. This is easy, this person is repeatedly violating the rules and ToS you've set out, and you're about to lose a lot of authors over it. The choice seems pretty clear?
- Paper Moon on 07/02/20 02:18 pm
It's been half a month since this thread has been created, with a hundred people basically explaining why this needs to stop, and we still haven't heard anything from the admin.

I'll ask again, what's the point of this thread ? Are you going to do something about it, now that people have repeatedly asked you to, or are you just going to ignore everyone and hope we'll just give up ?

One of liu's stories is a screenshot, for god's sake. I don't think you need 100+ comments to understand why this guy should be banned, and yet, here we are.

This thread is just an admin looking for validation, and refusing to change his mind even against overwhelming evidence he's wrong.
- Skadia on 07/02/20 04:11 pm
At the very least can you FINALLY add the Transgender tag? Like that'd be nice. So we can help filter the content and it'd be nice to show you care about your transgender writers and readers. Transgender is different from some of the other stuff on here, and that other stuff is fine, and valid. But it's time to get with the times, I've been on this site for a decade and I've never seen it added, can you please at the very least add that Joe?
- Cabbitgurl on 07/02/20 06:01 pm
This is becoming Crystal's Storysite all over again. There was a user there who posted very objectionable stories there, Crystal refused to remove the stories for some bizarre reason (a lot of them included graphic descriptions of pedophilia) People got angry, authors deleted their stories in protest, readers stopped coming to the site, and Crystal abandoned it.
Don't be like Crystal, Joe. You can still fix this situation.
- oh2bpreg on 07/02/20 10:19 pm
We're already at the authors deleting stories phase of the story so I think at this point significantly more than just doing what should have been done in the first place is going to be needed to fix this now.
- Uncreative on 07/02/20 11:18 pm
I'd just like to second many who have already spoken: this site would benefit from a general "don't be a dick" rule. If you're posting stuff that might be controversial because it's intrinsically part of your story, fine, art's like that sometimes. If you're doing it *purely to get a reaction*, i.e., trolling, like Liu is, then your right to post should, at the very least, be temporarily limited.

And, while we're at it, my wishlist is as follow:

-Abolish the Shemale tag--replace it with non-op or even d*ckgirl if you must
-Put in a Transgender tag, if for no other reason than those stories are usually qualitatively different from than from the fetish/erotica stories (I mean, in most of the former, the characters actually *welcome* any change in physical gender)
-I also like the idea of having a comphet warning tag, per redactedthegreat's masterpiece, because screw that noise.
- Tessarion on 07/02/20 11:42 pm
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